Comments on: Self Differentiation and Communion http://ecubishop.wordpress.com/2007/03/21/self-differentiation-and-communion/ reflections on unity Sun, 01 Nov 2009 12:55:12 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: obadiahslope http://ecubishop.wordpress.com/2007/03/21/self-differentiation-and-communion/#comment-269 obadiahslope Fri, 23 Mar 2007 01:36:48 +0000 http://ecubishop.wordpress.com/2007/03/21/self-differentiation-and-communion/#comment-269 I would point to the number of congregations leaving for AMiA and CANA compared to local churches happy with DEPO, as evidence that however noble the intention, DEPO has failed to reassure. Were I an evangelical in TEC I would welcome the fact that DEPO might send a friendly face to visit and conduct confirmations, but I would still be concerned that there is no guarantee thet a local bishop will allow ordinands to attend an evangelical seminary so that a continuing supply of evangelical priests will be available. This is a real concern for evangelicals that is simply not addressed by DEPO. In conversation with Bill Carroll and other convinced-but-gentle prgressives it is clear to me that the ordination process in TEC is such that no such guarantee can be given. I hasten to add that I do not regard this as organised persecution in any sense but the simple outcome of the fate of ordinands being up to the examining committees and the individual bishops. Some progressive Bishops, such as Bruno, appear to have encouraged evangelicals in the past but a more organised scheme is needed. Call it DEPO plus if you will. I think the panel of reference report on Florida might have got the balance right : The local bishop is recignised, property remains with the diocese, plus some additional protections foir the dissidents. I would point to the number of congregations leaving for AMiA and CANA compared to local churches happy with DEPO, as evidence that however noble the intention, DEPO has failed to reassure. Were I an evangelical in TEC I would welcome the fact that DEPO might send a friendly face to visit and conduct confirmations, but I would still be concerned that there is no guarantee thet a local bishop will allow ordinands to attend an evangelical seminary so that a continuing supply of evangelical priests will be available.
This is a real concern for evangelicals that is simply not addressed by DEPO. In conversation with Bill Carroll and other convinced-but-gentle prgressives it is clear to me that the ordination process in TEC is such that no such guarantee can be given. I hasten to add that I do not regard this as organised persecution in any sense but the simple outcome of the fate of ordinands being up to the examining committees and the individual bishops. Some progressive Bishops, such as Bruno, appear to have encouraged evangelicals in the past but a more organised scheme is needed. Call it DEPO plus if you will.
I think the panel of reference report on Florida might have got the balance right : The local bishop is recignised, property remains with the diocese, plus some additional protections foir the dissidents.

]]> By: ecubishop http://ecubishop.wordpress.com/2007/03/21/self-differentiation-and-communion/#comment-268 ecubishop Fri, 23 Mar 2007 01:05:50 +0000 http://ecubishop.wordpress.com/2007/03/21/self-differentiation-and-communion/#comment-268 Obadiah: We have such a "scheme." It is called "Delegated Episcopal Pastoral Oversight" (DEPO) and it has been in place for a number of years. It is working in several places and could work in more, if the dioceses which alternative oversight would give it a try. The "Primatial Vicar" our Presiding Bishop has proposed would function in a similar manner. He would simply not be under the jurisdiction of overseas bishops (as in the "Pastoral Council") but working with her and the local bishop to effect healing and reconciliation. Obadiah:

We have such a “scheme.” It is called “Delegated Episcopal Pastoral Oversight” (DEPO) and it has been in place for a number of years. It is working in several places and could work in more, if the dioceses which alternative oversight would give it a try.

The “Primatial Vicar” our Presiding Bishop has proposed would function in a similar manner. He would simply not be under the jurisdiction of overseas bishops (as in the “Pastoral Council”) but working with her and the local bishop to effect healing and reconciliation.

]]> By: obadiahslope http://ecubishop.wordpress.com/2007/03/21/self-differentiation-and-communion/#comment-267 obadiahslope Thu, 22 Mar 2007 12:54:58 +0000 http://ecubishop.wordpress.com/2007/03/21/self-differentiation-and-communion/#comment-267 Bishop, I wonder if your system would allow another Iker to get confirmed. I guess we will only know that when the situation next presents itself. The polity of my province, Australia, differs from yours in that bishops do not have to be nationally confirmed. I do wonder if that is a strength or a weakness. Our situationa allows our very different dioceses to co-exist. I would imagine at some stage in the future the sticking point for TEC will be a candidate for bishop who refuses to license non-celebate gay clergy. It is those dioceses most likely to elect such a person who must be wondering about their future in TEC. The bishop's statements which rejected the primates' scheme without suggesting an alternative can only have raised the anxiety level in those places. Do you think an alternative scheme will be put forward by the PB, the bishops or the Executive Council anytime soon? Bishop,
I wonder if your system would allow another Iker to get confirmed. I guess we will only know that when the situation next presents itself. The polity of my province, Australia, differs from yours in that bishops do not have to be nationally confirmed. I do wonder if that is a strength or a weakness. Our situationa allows our very different dioceses to co-exist.
I would imagine at some stage in the future the sticking point for TEC will be a candidate for bishop who refuses to license non-celebate gay clergy. It is those dioceses most likely to elect such a person who must be wondering about their future in TEC. The bishop’s statements which rejected the primates’ scheme without suggesting an alternative can only have raised the anxiety level in those places. Do you think an alternative scheme will be put forward by the PB, the bishops or the Executive Council anytime soon?

]]> By: ecubishop http://ecubishop.wordpress.com/2007/03/21/self-differentiation-and-communion/#comment-266 ecubishop Thu, 22 Mar 2007 11:51:30 +0000 http://ecubishop.wordpress.com/2007/03/21/self-differentiation-and-communion/#comment-266 JB: I suppose it's always a matter of "parsing" or interepretation of a person's statements. All I'm saying is that apparantly a majority of Standing Committees (or was it really a majority...I'm not sure how the several "improperly marked" ballots plays into all this) believed he would and the majority of bishops believed he would not. I don't know if Fr. Lawrence will let his name go forward again, but I frankly think he should...and make his position on this matter crystal clear. JB:

I suppose it’s always a matter of “parsing” or interepretation of a person’s statements. All I’m saying is that apparantly a majority of Standing Committees (or was it really a majority…I’m not sure how the several “improperly marked” ballots plays into all this) believed he would and the majority of bishops believed he would not.

I don’t know if Fr. Lawrence will let his name go forward again, but I frankly think he should…and make his position on this matter crystal clear.

]]> By: ecubishop http://ecubishop.wordpress.com/2007/03/21/self-differentiation-and-communion/#comment-265 ecubishop Thu, 22 Mar 2007 11:48:17 +0000 http://ecubishop.wordpress.com/2007/03/21/self-differentiation-and-communion/#comment-265 Obadiah: I'm not sure it's so much "a degree of contortion" as another example of trying to make space for those who disagree. Bishops can be opposed to the ordination of women and still make provisions for them to go through the ordination process. Jack Iker does so. All bishops will allow celibate gay and lesbian persons to go through the ordination process and so could fulfill the intent of the canon at least on that level. We have said that both those who oppose and those who support the ordination of women and gay and lesbian persons have a place in this church. Obadiah:

I’m not sure it’s so much “a degree of contortion” as another example of trying to make space for those who disagree. Bishops can be opposed to the ordination of women and still make provisions for them to go through the ordination process. Jack Iker does so. All bishops will allow celibate gay and lesbian persons to go through the ordination process and so could fulfill the intent of the canon at least on that level. We have said that both those who oppose and those who support the ordination of women and gay and lesbian persons have a place in this church.

]]> By: rwk http://ecubishop.wordpress.com/2007/03/21/self-differentiation-and-communion/#comment-264 rwk Thu, 22 Mar 2007 10:48:59 +0000 http://ecubishop.wordpress.com/2007/03/21/self-differentiation-and-communion/#comment-264 Lois and others, What I have seen is that the traditional orthodox teachings of Christianity are more and more mariginalized. I've sat in "Bible Studies" in a revisionist parish where when I spoke of Jesus rising physically, bodily from the dead and the importance of that fact I got looks of astonishment that anyone could be so silly as to actually "believe" that. "It's a metaphor" or "It's a literary device" but it certainly wasn't "real". I was already looked at suspiciously just because I walked in with my own Bible full of marks and notes. I was not invited back in to the "study" -- no room. The trajectory has been steady and unmistakable. While traveling for work I got to spend Sunday after Sunday in a revisionist Church where the priest regularly quoted Camus, Sartre and Freud and at almost never Christ. All of these experiences have made me deeply suspicious. TEC has also been quite selective in its discipline. When the Spirit is doing a "new thing" the canons can be overridden. Women's ordination? Non-celibate homosexual ordination? When you cross the leadership as matter of conscience you'll feel the full weight of them. Connecticut, South Carolina and now the retired Bishop of MD. Finally, I am very aware of the fact that I could be wrong. I do know my history. It was not an easy decision to support separation from TEC. However, I'm not sure that my decision is the same thing as "a separate black province". If God convicts me on this account, I'll repent and return but until then in good conscience, I have to go. If the Spirit truly is present then I presume I will be forgiven and welcomed...in the interim I guess I will need to be forgiven seven times seventy. Lois and others,

What I have seen is that the traditional orthodox teachings of Christianity are more and more mariginalized. I’ve sat in “Bible Studies” in a revisionist parish where when I spoke of Jesus rising physically, bodily from the dead and the importance of that fact I got looks of astonishment that anyone could be so silly as to actually “believe” that. “It’s a metaphor” or “It’s a literary device” but it certainly wasn’t “real”. I was already looked at suspiciously just because I walked in with my own Bible full of marks and notes. I was not invited back in to the “study” — no room. The trajectory has been steady and unmistakable. While traveling for work I got to spend Sunday after Sunday in a revisionist Church where the priest regularly quoted Camus, Sartre and Freud and at almost never Christ. All of these experiences have made me deeply suspicious.

TEC has also been quite selective in its discipline. When the Spirit is doing a “new thing” the canons can be overridden. Women’s ordination? Non-celibate homosexual ordination? When you cross the leadership as matter of conscience you’ll feel the full weight of them. Connecticut, South Carolina and now the retired Bishop of MD.

Finally, I am very aware of the fact that I could be wrong. I do know my history. It was not an easy decision to support separation from TEC. However, I’m not sure that my decision is the same thing as “a separate black province”. If God convicts me on this account, I’ll repent and return but until then in good conscience, I have to go. If the Spirit truly is present then I presume I will be forgiven and welcomed…in the interim I guess I will need to be forgiven seven times seventy.

]]> By: JB http://ecubishop.wordpress.com/2007/03/21/self-differentiation-and-communion/#comment-263 JB Thu, 22 Mar 2007 03:09:40 +0000 http://ecubishop.wordpress.com/2007/03/21/self-differentiation-and-communion/#comment-263 Bishop: I have yet to see where Lawrence said that he would lead the diocese out. I have read that some believed that he would, but I have not seen anyone do much more than parse "intend." Perhaps you can provide us with that tidbit of information. If he did say it, then the bishops were surely negligent in granting consent. If he did not, then the standing committees have made it plain that we want SC and other such dioceses either to sit silently in the corner or to leave. I think Obadiah is wrong in that it is graceiousness that will be required, a trait that seems sorely lacking on both sides. Peace, JB Bishop:

I have yet to see where Lawrence said that he would lead the diocese out. I have read that some believed that he would, but I have not seen anyone do much more than parse “intend.” Perhaps you can provide us with that tidbit of information. If he did say it, then the bishops were surely negligent in granting consent. If he did not, then the standing committees have made it plain that we want SC and other such dioceses either to sit silently in the corner or to leave. I think Obadiah is wrong in that it is graceiousness that will be required, a trait that seems sorely lacking on both sides.

Peace,
JB

]]> By: toujoursdan http://ecubishop.wordpress.com/2007/03/21/self-differentiation-and-communion/#comment-262 toujoursdan Thu, 22 Mar 2007 03:02:46 +0000 http://ecubishop.wordpress.com/2007/03/21/self-differentiation-and-communion/#comment-262 Thanks to the HOB for shedding some much needed clarity. While I am joyful at the measured and well articulated response to a power grab by some Primates, I know that there are faithful Christians who may feel a need to depart, and their loss will be missed. I hope that any split will be temporary and that like the moral row over slavery in the 19th Century, the Spirit will eventually speak and the wounds healed. I will continue to pray that while your relationships with some partners may change that those who have come to depend on the TEC's generous support in prayer and finances for aid and development can still be helped. Dan Gatineau, Québec Canada Thanks to the HOB for shedding some much needed clarity.

While I am joyful at the measured and well articulated response to a power grab by some Primates, I know that there are faithful Christians who may feel a need to depart, and their loss will be missed. I hope that any split will be temporary and that like the moral row over slavery in the 19th Century, the Spirit will eventually speak and the wounds healed.

I will continue to pray that while your relationships with some partners may change that those who have come to depend on the TEC’s generous support in prayer and finances for aid and development can still be helped.

Dan
Gatineau, Québec Canada

]]> By: obadiahslope http://ecubishop.wordpress.com/2007/03/21/self-differentiation-and-communion/#comment-261 obadiahslope Thu, 22 Mar 2007 02:16:35 +0000 http://ecubishop.wordpress.com/2007/03/21/self-differentiation-and-communion/#comment-261 Ecubishop, I am puzzled. Suppose a diocese elects a bishop wwho might be aginst the ordination of women or opposed to gay clergy. Yet the canons of TEC ISTM make it clear that wome and gays are not to be discriminated against in TEC. How can such a bishop swear to be loyal to the canons and doctrine of TEC? Surely you would agree that a degree of contortion is required? Ecubishop,
I am puzzled. Suppose a diocese elects a bishop wwho might be aginst the ordination of women or opposed to gay clergy. Yet the canons of TEC ISTM make it clear that wome and gays are not to be discriminated against in TEC. How can such a bishop swear to be loyal to the canons and doctrine of TEC? Surely you would agree that a degree of contortion is required?

]]> By: James http://ecubishop.wordpress.com/2007/03/21/self-differentiation-and-communion/#comment-260 James Thu, 22 Mar 2007 01:09:03 +0000 http://ecubishop.wordpress.com/2007/03/21/self-differentiation-and-communion/#comment-260 SInner, They aren't scrambling to have special conventions. That was all organized months and months ago. Now they have most of the ducks in a row so they can scream martyr and persecution and flee for refuse to the Nigerian bigot. The rest of the AC (or what will be left of it after the Nigerian is through) better get ready because he is coming for them, next. In 50 years, i've hardly been more proud to be an Episcopalian -- not sunce my priest marched with MLK Jr. My hat is off to the HOB for such a clear stand for human rights, Jesus, and against the despot pontiff. SInner,
They aren’t scrambling to have special conventions. That was all organized months and months ago. Now they have most of the ducks in a row so they can scream martyr and persecution and flee for refuse to the Nigerian bigot.

The rest of the AC (or what will be left of it after the Nigerian is through) better get ready because he is coming for them, next.

In 50 years, i’ve hardly been more proud to be an Episcopalian — not sunce my priest marched with MLK Jr.

My hat is off to the HOB for such a clear stand for human rights, Jesus, and against the despot pontiff.

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